Curse

William Sunrider · Apr 03, 2006, 06:45 PM // 18:45

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Originally Posted by KvanCetre

For the love of god we are not samurais and ninjas.

/signed

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for my opinion and the opinion of all those who have any clue why Guild Wars is called a revolutionary game.

/signed

I would love to see a Templar Knight, or a Crusader styled knight. Even a true roman gladiator in Tyira, but that defeats the point of making fantasy game.

YOu give the Ninjafanboys their sheaths, where is the Knights Sheath? his sword was just as priced as a Samurai's (shaped like a cross). Where is that of the Knights, the Mesmer's Rapier, the Luxon's Talking parrot on the shoulder?

S H I N O B I · Apr 03, 2006, 07:30 PM // 19:30

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Originally Posted by William Sunrider

/signed

/signed

I would love to see a Templar Knight, or a Crusader styled knight. Even a true roman gladiator in Tyira, but that defeats the point of making fantasy game.

YOu give the Ninjafanboys their sheaths, where is the Knights Sheath? his sword was just as priced as a Samurai's (shaped like a cross). Where is that of the Knights, the Mesmer's Rapier, the Luxon's Talking parrot on the shoulder?

I'm all for giving these Knight fanboys their scabbard/sheaths as well... Maybe it can be inserted on or attached to a shield, then held on the back like in WoW.

And Once again, for the love of God neither are we Knights and wutever the heck medevial class type there is....

Eltargrim · Apr 03, 2006, 09:30 PM // 21:30

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Originally Posted by Akhilleus

A: for ken its called a scabbard, not a sheath.

This is actually true of many, if not most, swords.

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B: a "katana" is NOT a full-length sword, this is a very common misconception. a katana is actually a short sword designed for one-handed close-combat, and is more suited as a more defensive sword. a full-length japanese sword is called a "ken" and in some regions "kenpo" leading to the art of swordsmanship being called kenpo-jutsu NOT katana-jutsu.

Paraphrased from Wikipedia

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The katana (刀) is the Japanese backsword or longsword (大刀 daitō) of the type specifically in use after the 1400s (following the use of the tachi), although many Japanese use this word generically as a catch-all word for sword.

It refers to a specific type of curved, single-edged sword traditionally used by the Japanese samurai. The weapon was typically paired with the wakizashi, a similarly made but shorter sword both worn by the members of the buke (bushi) warrior class, it could also be worn with the tantō, an even smaller similarly shaped blade

You have it backwards. A wakizashi is a short sword, while a Ken is a rare variety of tantō, primarily used in Buddist rituals. Could it be possible we're in different time periods?

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D: as for the name "assassin" itself...its a persian word (farci), and refers to an ENTIRELY different type of killing provided by that of a ninja, which more closely represent the assassins onf factions.

Haššāšīn" (حشّاشين, "hashish-eaters"), is the word that you're looking for. It refers to a religious sect, not a type of killing.

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what is my point?
this is a game, if you want to get a "samurai feel" at least get an accurate one

Damn straight.

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...its fine as is, doesnt need changing.

Obviously debatable, but whatev'.

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couldnt have said it better myself, not a single person who argues for the whole ninja/samurai thing actually knows what the heck they are talking about.

I'd just like to point out I'm not technically for samurai/ninja; I'd have no problem with it, however, if it was accurate.

Akhilleus · Apr 03, 2006, 11:32 PM // 23:32

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Paraphrased from Wikipedia
You have it backwards. A wakizashi is a short sword, while a Ken is a rare variety of tantō, primarily used in Buddist rituals. Could it be possible we're in different time periods?

unfortunatly, while wikipedia is great and all; anyone can edit the information in it.
theres a great book, origionally written in japanese and translated to english called "way of the warrior" it was written by an accumulation of writers given special permission to watch the training techniques supplied by some of the most respected and highly skilled sword masters in the world. it includes a list of virtually every weapon; ranging from a tanto to sai to senban.
you will find that a katana is about 2.5-3 feet in length appx, and is almost never advocated as a 2-handed weapon. a full-length sword is generally about 3.5-4.5 feet in length appx, and is not designed for single-handed combat. the stuff in movies, where people flip around a katana with a single hand at insane speeds, and shoving the scabbard into the opponents eyes, or whatever the case may be, has led many people, unfortunatly, to assosiate them as the main sword used by japanese soldery. the number 1 reason for this is that the katana, NOT the full length japanese swords, were the main choice of weaponry of ninja, mostly because combat inside foa buolding is in a more confined space, and often had to use their offhand to cover the mouth of their target.
the fact is that the scabbard is generally tied to the waist, and not used as a weapon, or as a tool for blocking.

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Haššāšīn" (حشّاشين, "hashish-eaters"), is the word that you're looking for. It refers to a religious sect, not a type of killing.

i should mention the word "assassin" was derived from a sad attempt by europeans to pronounce the words. the reason the word was turned into the word for assassin is that the middle eastern empires were well-known for paying their assassins in "hasish" and later in opium.

prodigy ming · Apr 04, 2006, 12:55 AM // 00:55

As much as i want to be unbias... I must first start off saying i hate samurai/ninja fanboys. Having a general interest and liking it is fine, but its people who yell all day we need samruias and ninjas everywhere that pisses me off.

I think Anet made a great choice to add in some less common Asain styled weapons and armors of Chinese and Korean origin like the Legionnaire warrior armor instead of the samurai armor we see too much already. (though i wouldn't necessary mind if its added later)

Its true that Chinese generals and warriors are alot less familar to the North American than Samurai. At first I found that strange since the Chinese has been pretty much at war with barbarians like Huns, or Mogol, and each other almost constantly for the past 3000 years.

However, when outsider truely first got to known the Chinese was at their weakest time during the end of the Qing Dynasty while the Japanese was a raising star with their modernaztion. I think thats why people came to disregard Chinese as able warriors and praise Japanese samurai as l33t godly people. The popular anime and manga from Japanese also help to promote this view while the Chinese hardly ever bother telling the world of her greatest warriors. Even some of Chinese most popular warriors from the Era of the 3 kingdoms was popularized by the Japanese.

With all the history lesson done with, I think they should change the current Legionnaire helm to something like this http://www.skyno.com/~xy100mp/images/toukui_8.JPG which more truely resemble a real chinese/korean armor style.
it would be cool if they add some most unique looking dao like this one (the nine ring board sword/dao)http://www.karatedepot.com/catalog/i...s/wp-sw-25.jpg

Eltargrim · Apr 04, 2006, 01:26 AM // 01:26

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Originally Posted by Akhilleus

unfortunatly, while wikipedia is great and all; anyone can edit the information in it.

And anyone can correct it, too

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theres a great book, origionally written in japanese

With all due respect, that point amounts to a hill of beans.

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and translated to english called "way of the warrior" it was written by an accumulation of writers given special permission to watch the training techniques supplied by some of the most respected and highly skilled sword masters in the world. it includes a list of virtually every weapon; ranging from a tanto to sai to senban.

Once again, are we talking about the same time period? I'm talking about the approx. fifteenth century. You?

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you will find that a katana is about 2.5-3 feet in length appx, and is almost never advocated as a 2-handed weapon.

I never said that it was; Wikipedia seems to disagree with you, though. There are those who would wield a daisho in tandem, however.

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a full-length sword is generally about 3.5-4.5 feet in length appx, and is not designed for single-handed combat.

In Europe, the longsword of fame was in between approx 90 cm (3') and 140 cm (5 1/2 feet). However, these longer versions were anti-cavalry and anti-polearm weapons.

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the stuff in movies, where people flip around a katana with a single hand at insane speeds, and shoving the scabbard into the opponents eyes, or whatever the case may be, has led many people, unfortunatly, to assosiate them as the main sword used by japanese soldery.

The katana were not the sword of Japanese soldiers; they were the main swords of the Japanese samurai. And I agree, that kind of combat is unrealistic; singlehanded wielding, however, is not.

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the number 1 reason for this is that the katana, NOT the full length japanese swords, were the main choice of weaponry of ninja

I respectfully disagree; would you say a 90 cm blade would be easy to conceal? Ninjas were not super-assasins. Ninja, as either assasins or spies, the latter of which has the most evidence, would need weapons easily concealed. You try concealing a 3' blade on your body.

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the fact is that the scabbard is generally tied to the waist, and not used as a weapon, or as a tool for blocking.

Agreed. It holds your sword; that is pretty much that.

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the reason the word was turned into the word for assassin is that the middle eastern empires were well-known for paying their assassins in "hasish" and later in opium.

Not quite, but close enough.

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Originally Posted by prodigy ming

Very true, and I'd just like to say that that would look very good in GW.

S H I N O B I · Apr 04, 2006, 02:26 AM // 02:26

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Originally Posted by Eltargrim

I respectfully disagree; would you say a 90 cm blade would be easy to conceal? Ninjas were not super-assasins. Ninja, as either assasins or spies, the latter of which has the most evidence, would need weapons easily concealed. You try concealing a 3' blade on your body.

Ninja do use swords similar to the Katana which some call as Ninjatō (忍者刀) but tended to be straighter, and was generally not made of folded metal, as well as weaker. It's sheath/scabbard concealed the blade and prevented it from reflecting and revealing the ninja's presence. I think the Shinobi blade from the FPE event was modeled after this. It was more likely held on the back instead of on its side, to reward ninja with better movement.

1. Ninja did not put much effort and soul into their equipment (in contrary to the samurai's bushido). Therefore the sword could be abandoned if necessary.
2. The cord (sageo) hanging from the saya was longer so the user could climb over a wall with his ninjato and later lift the sword up with the cord he brought with him.
3. The hilt (tsuka) was longer to facilitate its use as a launchpad over walls, etc.
4. The blade was rarely sharp across all of its length. Most effort was put into the end, where cutting and stabbing were performed.
5. The blade was shorter (so it could be easily carried and drawn from back) because close quarters work was often performed by the ninja.
6. The hilt was sometimes longer so that things could be hidden inside it. Examples: shuriken, blinding powder, and secret documents.

(this info was obtained also from wikipedia)

Prefectus · Apr 04, 2006, 02:38 AM // 02:38

umm to be honest there all 36" blades 2 are full tang and the rest are cheap rat tail display swords ill put pic's up tomorow if you want

Akhilleus · Apr 04, 2006, 03:19 AM // 03:19

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With all due respect, that point amounts to a hill of beans.

my point was that it was translated by proffessional translators, and leaves many of the japanese characters in the book for reference.

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Once again, are we talking about the same time period? I'm talking about the approx. fifteenth century. You?

likewise.

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I never said that it was; Wikipedia seems to disagree with you, though. There are those who would wield a daisho in tandem, however.

interestingly enough; for most of the 13-16 hundreds dual-weilding swords was almost unheard of, and even afterwards not a type of combat that ever became largely popular.
i should mention i initially misread this; i thought you were referring to using both swords equipped simentaneously; which was a rather rare type of combat, though very often samurai would have a daisho (pair of swords), one for the more traditional and widely used doubble-handed combat, and the other, shorter sword, for more defensive combat.

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In Europe, the longsword of fame was in between approx 90 cm (3') and 140 cm (5 1/2 feet). However, these longer versions were anti-cavalry and anti-polearm weapons.

this is true.
but keep in mind the name of the "longsword" was in comparison with the other, more widely accepted type of sword used in the european continent; the gladius. the germanic and gallic tribes used them; as this is where the name comes from to begin with. the type of sword used most during the medieval period was actually not a true longsword, but rather a bastard sword meanwhile the term "longsword" is more accuratly reserved for the swords used by the germanic tribes themselves; often dual wielding swords 3-4 feet in length against the roman soldiers.
a bastard sword itself was designed as a more versatile weapon; used by medieval men-at-arms. it was a blade appx 3-3.5 feet long, 3.5-4.5 in total length, and the main distinction that made it so widely used was that while it was an average sized blade, its hilt was large enough to be used with either 1 or two hands, meaning it could be used in conjunction with a shield, for combat more qell suited towards defense, or with two hands, for combat more well-suited for for powerful blows against less armored foes.
as for anti-cavalry swords, many are still on display at the imperial war museum at vienna, and medieval armory museums all throuought central and south central europe. one of the most well-known types of anti-cavalry sword is the flameberge, generally about 5.5-6.5 feet long and used to take down the cavalryman (when possible the horse would be spared, as horses were a valuable commodity) himself, or to cut the lances if the cavalry were to be grounded in mid-charge (usually via pikemen).

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The katana were not the sword of Japanese soldiers; they were the main swords of the Japanese samurai. And I agree, that kind of combat is unrealistic; singlehanded wielding, however, is not.

true, the sword was a status symbol, but a samurai is a class of soldiery.
and i never have and never will say single handed combat was unrealistic, its just a COMPLETLY different type of fight. on the field of battle a doubble handed sword would be superior (since the japanese largely refrained from using shields), but inside of a building a katana or tanto or wakasashi would be better.

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I respectfully disagree; would you say a 90 cm blade would be easy to conceal? Ninjas were not super-assasins. Ninja, as either assasins or spies, the latter of which has the most evidence, would need weapons easily concealed. You try concealing a 3' blade on your body.

this is true. which si why, contrary to common belief and pop-culture, ninja would rarely act alone; this is the single largest destinction between a ninja and the assassins of the middle east. the other major destinction is that the ninja, while you are correct that they were used more as spies, would kill their target if they had one. the fedayeen, however, would often just injure or scare the target, as culturally it was more important to scare an official, rather than kill them. meanwhile, as im sure you're aware, the japanese would often kill for even looking at them (quite literally).

LightningHell · Apr 04, 2006, 03:38 AM // 03:38

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Once again, are we talking about the same time period? I'm talking about the approx. fifteenth century. You?

I'm guessing Kendo was in somewhere around the 15th century. Please correct.

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I respectfully disagree; would you say a 90 cm blade would be easy to conceal? Ninjas were not super-assasins. Ninja, as either assasins or spies, the latter of which has the most evidence, would need weapons easily concealed. You try concealing a 3' blade on your body.

Ninjitsu, so there was. Hmm? Although I haven't seen a lot of people use it other than my mentor, my classmate and (partially) me.

Just trying to make points I haven't seen made.

Eltargrim · Apr 04, 2006, 03:40 AM // 03:40

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Originally Posted by Akhilleus

my point was that it was translated by proffessional translators, and leaves many of the japanese characters in the book for reference.

The importance is not the language, but the understanding of the author.

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likewise.

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interestingly enough; for most of the 13-16 hundreds dual-weilding swords was almost unheard of, and even afterwards not a type of combat that ever became largely popular.

It was used prevalently among Scottish tribes of the time, but that's a bit removed from the area in question.

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but keep in mind the name of the "longsword" was in comparison with the other, more widely accepted type of sword used in the european continent; the gladius.

This comes from linguistic differences between us; I'm using longsword to speak of swords the size of a bastard sword.

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the type of sword used most during the medieval period was actually not a true longsword, but rather a bastard sword meanwhile the term "longsword" is more accuratly reserved for the swords used by the germanic tribes themselves;

Linguistic differences once again. A longsword is defined as such by the length of the hilt; if the non-primary hand (secondary?) fits fully on the hilt, it is a long sword. If it only fits on the pommel, it is an arming sword, slightly larger than a gladius. If it is larger than the forearm, it can be considered a proper 2-handed sword. Longsword is used to describe swords that are easily used in either a one-handed or two-handed form.

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a bastard sword itself was designed as a more versatile weapon; used by medieval men-at-arms. it was a blade appx 3-3.5 feet long, and the main distinction that made it so widely used was that while it was an average sized blade, its hilt was large enough to be used with either 1 or two hands, meaning it could be used in conjunction with a shield, for combat more qell suited towards defense, or with two hands, for combat more well-suited for for powerful blows against less armored foes.

The bastard sword is a longsword specifically designed for the purposes you described, usually carefully balanced so it can be so versatile.

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true, the sword was a status symbol, but a samurai is a class of soldiery.

Samurai were the nobility among soldiery, and there was not much movement between the castes; therefore, it is relatively safe to say that the katana was not the weapon of the common soldiery.

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and i never have and never will say single handed combat was unrealistic, its just a COMPLETLY different type of fight.

I apologize, I misinterpreted your statement. I agree on all counts, of course.

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on the field of battle a doubble handed sword would be superior (since the japanese largely refrained from using shields)

There is something to be said about those samurai who would wield a daisho in tandem, however

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but inside of a building a katana or tanto or wakasashi would be better.

Better than a claymore, you mean? Just asking for clarification, here.

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this is true. which si why, contrary to common belief and pop-culture, ninja would rarely act alone

One of my pet peeves is when people take neo-ninjas as the real thing. And I assume you mean they'd rarely act alone while assasinating someone.

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this is the single largest destinction between a ninja and the assassins of the middle east. the other major destinction is that the ninja, while you are correct that they were used more as spies, would kill their target if they had one. the fedayeen, however, would often just injure or scare the target, as culturally it was more important to scare an official, rather than kill them.

Not quite so sure about this, but the assasins of the middle-east are not my speciality.

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meanwhile, as im sure you're aware, the japanese would often kill for even looking at them (quite literally).

Ah, the wonders of a rigid caste system

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Originally Posted by LightningHell

I'm guessing Kendo was in somewhere around the 15th century. Please correct.

I do believe it was, although the shinai and bogu were not used for several centuries more.

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Ninjitsu, so there was.

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Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Ninjutsu (忍術) is a collection of techniques originally practiced for espionage purposes. It includes methods of gathering information, non-detection, avoidance, and misdirection techniques. Ninjutsu can also involve training in disguise, escape, concealment, archery, medicine, and explosives.

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Originally Posted by Wikipedia

The Bujinkan Dōjō method is named Bujinkan Budō Taijutsu (武神館武道体術), and is a collection of nine martial arts family lineages, called ryūha. The art was previously called Bujinkan Ninpō Taijutsu and before that it was known under the more generic name of ninjutsu - a name that many serious practitioners of the art today avoid as it has acquired something of a bad reputation.

I do believe that should suffice; ninjutsu today is quite different than what it once was.

Nevin · Apr 04, 2006, 03:55 AM // 03:55

We need Odachis. 67 inch long ones. http://www.knightsedge.com/swords/od...urai-sword.htm

Akhilleus · Apr 04, 2006, 03:59 AM // 03:59

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This comes from linguistic differences between us; I'm using longsword to speak of swords the size of a bastard sword.

well the reason i make the destinction is the term "longsword" is extremly broad, since the term came about due to virtually any sword longer than a gladius origionally being referred to as a longsword.
the most popular type of longsword was the bastard sword, or hand and a half sword, as its sometimes called; a bastard sword was actually longer than what was traditionally referred to as a longsword the reason i mentioned this is that the european longsword, (unlike the japanese counterpart of the most popular sword in their feudal period), was a 1-handed sword. The bastard sword is a longsword specifically designed for the purposes you described, usually carefully balanced so it can be so versatile.

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Samurai were the nobility among soldiery, and there was not much movement between the castes; therefore, it is relatively safe to say that the katana was not the weapon of the common soldiery.

true, though there were exceptions.

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Better than a claymore, you mean? Just asking for clarification, here.

for close-quarters combat, yes.
in terms of katana vs bastard sword in a confined space, im not 100% sure which i would consider to be superior, though in the hands of a skilled opponent, i would probably place my bets on someone using a bastard sword, largely because unlike the japanese katana, a bastard sword was a complete weapon, the hilt, pommel, blade, etc, were all used. this is generally not the case with a japanese sword.

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One of my pet peeves is when people take neo-ninjas as the real thing. And I assume you mean they'd rarely act alone while assasinating someone.

yes.
when on an assassination mission, ninja almost never acted alone, and if they did, they would fully expect not to return alive. ninja missions of assassination usually involved infiltration of the compound, the murder of the bodyguards, and the murder of the target, and often their family.
in contrast, middle-eastern assassins would most often work alone, and rather than infiltrate via force and stealth, would instead infiltrate via subterfuge; often getting a job as a servant to the person in question, gain the confidence of the target and the other personel over a period of months or years, and strike silently when the opportunity arises; then simply walking away as if nothing had ever happened.

merciless · Apr 04, 2006, 03:59 AM // 03:59

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Originally Posted by KvanCetre

No. For the love of god we are not samurais and ninjas.

Trust me... you can never tell who anyone really is from a forum.

Eltargrim · Apr 04, 2006, 04:15 AM // 04:15

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Originally Posted by Akhilleus

well the reason i make the destinction is the term "longsword" is extremly broad, since the term came about due to virtually any sword longer than a gladius origionally being referred to as a longsword. the most popular type of longsword was the bastard sword, or hand and a half sword, as its sometimes called

This is where the reference periods are coming into effect; I'm using the late medevial definition of longsword, which is long compared to an arming sword. You seem to be using the early medevial version, referring to a spatha.

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in terms of katana vs bastard sword in a confined space, im not 100% sure which i would consider to be superior, though in the hands of a skilled opponent, i would probably place my bets on someone using a bastard sword, largely because unlike the japanese katana, a bastard sword was a complete weapon, the hilt, pommel, blade, etc, were all used. this is generally not the case with a japanese sword.

If the wakizashi were to be included, I'd have to disagree. Otherwise, it sounds reasonable, assuming they were of equal skill.

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in contrast, middle-eastern assassins would most often work alone, and rather than infiltrate via force and stealth, would instead infiltrate via subterfuge; often getting a job as a servant to the person in question, gain the confidence of the target and the other personel over a period of months or years, and strike silently when the opportunity arises; then simply walking away as if nothing had ever happened.

I'd just like to point out the different tactics are not mutually exclusive; ninja can use the latter technique, and vice versa.

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Originally Posted by Nevin

<link>

With all due respect, that link is crap. Odachi != Nodachi. I agree, though

LightningHell · Apr 04, 2006, 04:29 AM // 04:29

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Originally Posted by Eltargrim

I do believe that should suffice; ninjutsu today is quite different than what it once was.

I'm talking about Ninjutsu. Taijutsu is different, is it.

Anyways, I specialize in barehand fighting, so whatever. Xiaolin Barehand FTW.

Tufty · Apr 04, 2006, 11:11 AM // 11:11

what was this thread originally about again!?!

Lucius Hyral · Apr 04, 2006, 02:33 PM // 14:33

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Originally Posted by S H I N O B I

Ninja do use swords similar to the Katana which some call as Ninjatō (忍者刀) but tended to be straighter, and was generally not made of folded metal, as well as weaker. It's sheath/scabbard concealed the blade and prevented it from reflecting and revealing the ninja's presence. I think the Shinobi blade from the FPE event was modeled after this. It was more likely held on the back instead of on its side, to reward ninja with better movement.

1. Ninja did not put much effort and soul into their equipment (in contrary to the samurai's bushido). Therefore the sword could be abandoned if necessary.
2. The cord (sageo) hanging from the saya was longer so the user could climb over a wall with his ninjato and later lift the sword up with the cord he brought with him.
3. The hilt (tsuka) was longer to facilitate its use as a launchpad over walls, etc.
4. The blade was rarely sharp across all of its length. Most effort was put into the end, where cutting and stabbing were performed.
5. The blade was shorter (so it could be easily carried and drawn from back) because close quarters work was often performed by the ninja.
6. The hilt was sometimes longer so that things could be hidden inside it. Examples: shuriken, blinding powder, and secret documents.

(this info was obtained also from wikipedia)

Are you serious, the wikipedia link itself starts with the disclaimer of:

"Ninjatō (忍者刀) is a Japanese sword used by the ninja that was similar to the katana, but tended to be straighter, and was generally not made of folded metal.

Many beliefs are held about the sword of the ninja. The discussion on veracity of these is left out of this article; however this weapon is almost certainly entirely fictitious.
"

gtfo gtfo gtfo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninjato

Poison Ivy · Apr 04, 2006, 02:37 PM // 14:37

/signed for sheath as a focus...that can increase some armor and energy...or whatever

Prefectus · Apr 04, 2006, 02:49 PM // 14:49

ninja's were more likely to be some "servents" aka cooks,planters,ect for there target and would not be a in and out kind of job like the assassin. they would wait for there kills, if even orderd to kill. think of ninjas as haveing more of a recon job